Ep. 27 — "Before A Fall" from Netflix's The Witcher
Elora from the Netherlands and Josh C. from the US join Alyssa from GoodMorhen for our discussion of “Before A Fall”, the seventh episode in season one of Netflix’s The Witcher. Very important bits include: speculating about future seasons of The Witcher on Netflix, crafting compelling villains, repetition as a device, and a call for Witcher friends and a D&D DM!
This episode is available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Stitcher.
In this episode
[00:00] Cold Open
[00:00] Introduction
[00:00] Discussion
[00:00] “Tidings from Toussaint”
[00:00] Discussion
[00:00] Outro & Credits
Relevant Links
Breakfast in Beauclair Listener Survey: bit.ly/listenersurvey2020
Breakfast in Beauclair Hanza Takeover: bit.ly/thehanza
News:
Transcript
Cold Open
ALYSSA: This is the scene that we see in the very first episode of the series where Ciri, Princess Cirilla is – oh, shit, I turned on Siri.
ELORA: [Inaudible 0:11] about Ciri.
Introduction
[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]
ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair, a global Witcher Podcast. My name is Alyssa from GoodMorhen, and I’ll be your host as you, I, and our international hanza accompany Geralt of Rivia and his destiny, Cirilla of Cintra, across The Continent.
[Welcome]
[Discord]
[Listener Survey]
[Hanza Takeover]
[Patron Announcements]
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[Episode Details]
Elora from the Netherlands and Josh C. from the US call in for our discussion of “Rare Species”, the seventh episode in season one of Netflix’s The Witcher. Join us as we speculate about future seasons of The Witcher on Netflix, talk compelling villains, how to use repetition as a literary device, and we make an early plea for Witcher friends and a D&D DM!
In our mid-episode news segment, “Tidings from Toussaint,” Lars from Witcherflix shares on-set updates for Season 2 of Netflix’s The Witcher.
Without further ado, let’s get to the discussion for The Witcher Episode 107, “Before A Fall”.
Discussion
[Breakfast in Beauclair stinger by MojoFilter Media]
ALYSSA: Welcome to Breakfast in Beauclair. My name is Alyssa and joining us today are Elora from the Netherlands and Josh from the US.
ELORA: Hello.
JOSH: Hello.
ALYSSA: So, this is both of your first times on the show and I'd love to hear more about who you guys are and introduce you to our hanza.
ELORA: I'm Elora from the Netherlands. I am a recent Art School graduate. I started reading the books after being introduced to the games and then I searched out everything I could find. So, I read the comics, watch the series, and I am now fully up to date and ready to go.
ALYSSA: And you're also working on something really incredible right now at the moment, right, Elora? You're working on a fantasy novel.
ELORA: Yeah, I am. I think about seven years ago I started on it. I'm getting ready to finish it up. So, it's very exciting. There's a lot of editing and a little rewriting. The Witcher books are definitely an inspiration for me. So, I thought it'd be nice to come on here and talk about those.
ALYSSA: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about, I guess, the premise of it?
ELORA: Okay. Fun fact, the main character is called Josh, which was an incredible surprise when I saw your email. So, at the start of the story, Josh’s hometown is overrun with monsters. And no one knows what they are. No one's ever seen them before. And he feels like he needs to understand them to understand the violence of the attack to deal with that trauma in some way. There's a reason that they are the way they are, he thinks. And he discovers that their origin is connected with the history that the Elven council keeps secrets as a way to stay in power. On his search, he meets Enva, an elf who rebels against the council. She has a tendency for rash decisions. And she also has a father figure who used to be a kind man, but now he's become paranoid and violent. And his people don't trust him anymore. They're joined by Newt, disgraced Dwarven researcher who fights to prove his theories about a power that can change organic life on a molecular level. At its core, the story is about the dangers of guilt and shame and about choosing empathy.
ALYSSA: So, I know that you talked through a little bit of your inspirations. You said The Witcher was an inspiration for you in working on this fantasy novel. What other inspirations do you look toward as you're working either on your art or on this novel?
ELORA: For the writing, it's definitely also Terry Pratchett's, Discworld Books. Those are very close to my heart. I grew up with them. They helped teach me English because I just wanted to read them in original form so badly because some of the translations are a little weird. I think one of the characters is called Carrot and they named him Beets in Dutch, which is not even the same vegetable. And, for arts, it's more, I think, David Hockney. Illustrators like Molly Fairhurst are great as well. I don't really separate specific types or genres of arts.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
ELORA: Yeah.
ALYSSA: Oh, that's lovely. And I guess is there anything from an artistic standpoint that you're excited about working on?
ELORA: I think the nicest, biggest inspiration that I, I took from Sapkowski’s writing was the way he repeats his words or he repeats sentences. I really want to incorporate that in my writing. I really want to make sure that, if I change the repetition pattern in the last time I mention it, that it really has an impact.
ALYSSA: Hmm.
ELORA: Yeah, I'm excited about that.
ALYSSA: Oh, that's really interesting for a couple reasons I think. That's one of my favorite things about his writing as well, particularly why Baptism of Fire is my favorite book in The Witcher saga. And, in Episode 6 of the podcast, Crisanto talked about the rule of thirds as being one of the primary, you know, rules of comedy.
ELORA: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: Yeah. So, it's something that's been brought up in the podcast as well. And it's cool to see that you're taking inspiration from that in your own work.
ELORA: Yeah, it really works so well. I just think it's a really interesting concept.
ALYSSA: Josh, it's also your first time here on the show. Would you be able to tell us about yourself and introduce yourself to our listeners?
JOSH: I am Josh from the US. I've been a massive fan of Witcher ever since I played The Witcher 3 about four years ago. I played that game and immediately had to find every possible thing which related to just watch and read just to get more and more information and lore about it because I was so in love with it. Right now, I work as a paraeducator at a school with first graders helping out with Math, and Science and Special Education needs.
ALYSSA: Yeah, that's incredible. This is, like, kind of my secret. And, if I wasn't doing the career that I am, I would love to be an educator.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: Like, for pre-K. That's, like, my secret dream.
JOSH: My mom is a pre-K teacher. So, we come from a family of teachers.
ALYSSA: Oh, that's so nice.
JOSH: I'm very used to working with younger kids, especially pre-K.
ALYSSA: Mhmm. Oh, that's incredible. That's incredible. They're so funny at that age. I think – I think that's what I love about it.
JOSH: They're a great bunch of kids. I love working with them. They're so much fun to be with every day.
ALYSSA: Mhmm. I guess just because this is, you know, a different time, I think, for everybody. It's currently May as we're recording. But would you be able to tell us I think a little bit about what being an educator looks like right now?
JOSH: Right now, it's a lot of Zoom calls – one-on-one Zoom calls with students going over their homework, helping them with their reading assignments, helping them with any Math problems they might have, checking in on them making sure that doing okay during this quarantine. It's very similar to what we did in school, but, obviously, remote with us being on Zoom calls. And we have been trying to make sure that they're getting the best education they can while being at home and not having all the same equipment and resources they have when they're at school.
ALYSSA: Yeah. And that they have support every step of the way for—
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: —you know, this inevitable period is incredibly important. And it's great to meet someone who has a part in that. To turn the conversation back to The Witcher and your own experience with fantasy, you mentioned that fantasy novels – that The Witcher has been a really strong, like, inspiration and joy for you.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: What impact do you think indulging in fantasy or having exposure to fantasy has on kids?
JOSH: I think fantasy can be a great outlet for people looking for either an escape from their own life or just to experience something new that they cannot do in real life. I can't cast fire from my hands or teleport places. But, when I'm playing Dungeon & Dragons with my friends, I can do that. It's this whole new world you can enter in where you can do all this amazing feats.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
JOSH: And it's incredibly fun to just be able to do those things in that world.
ELORA: I think it's also really helpful right now. Like, that's something that I noticed around me that more people are getting into Dungeons & Dragons, for example, because, well, that's also a way to be social but also because they can go anywhere even—
JOSH: Mhmm.
ELORA: —if they can't leave their house.
ALYSSA: Yeah, some of my friends from college and I go on a Google Hangout every, like, week or two. This week, we're actually talking about doing a Harry Potter tabletop RPG. I've never done one before and I'm kind of excited. So, I hope it – I hope it works out and it's a lot of fun. Maybe one day we'll be able to do a Witcher one too.
JOSH: They have one. I’ve been looking to find friends to get The Witcher tabletop game started. But I have yet to do that.
ALYSSA: Ooh.
JOSH: It is out there.
ALYSSA: I would 100 percent that, that we have enough people in this international hanza and in our community who would be more than happy to join a tabletop RPG that was Witcher themed. So, if anyone – if anyone in the community wants to do that, let me know. Granted this might be in September.
ELORA: That’s a good thing to get started in September.
ALYSSA: Yeah, we'll make it happen. We'll make it happen. I guess the last question that I have for you, Josh, you mentioned that you're working toward becoming a professor later in your career. Can you tell us about what your goals are in the future?
JOSH: I have been absolutely fascinated in ancient history. I have been trying to learn all I can about specifically the Akkadian Empire but also Mesopotamia upwards, the Romans. Just all the area and all the rich history within that, that Crescent that has applied so much technology that we use every day, I just want to learn as much as I can about it and hope that, with my knowledge, I can then teach others what I know about it. And they can find joy in the same thing I find joy in.
ALYSSA: Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah, it's been really cool hearing about all the different kinds of history that some of our previous guests and our listeners are into. There's just so much to explore.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ELORA: I feel like there – there's some kind of connection between people who are into fantasy and who are into history because I think there's an overlap there.
JOSH: Yeah, I can definitely see that. I know a lot of people, my friend included, who are – who are into fantasy also are very much of the history and especially medieval history.
ALYSSA: Yeah, we've got a lot of those in the hanza too. So, now that we've gotten to know both of our lovely guests, today, we'll be discussing Before A Fall, the penultimate episode in Netflix's First Season of The Witcher. In this episode, Geralt and Yennefer prepare for war with Nilfgaard as Ciri continues to flee from it. In Geralt's timeline, The Witcher goes to Cintra to claim his child of surprise fearing that she will not be safe when Nilfgaard attacks. Calanthe refuses and has the witcher locked away where he's unable to save Ciri from the siege. This is the penultimate episode of the first season of The Witcher and there's a lot of setup that happens not only in Geralt’s timeline but in Yennefer's and Ciri’s as well as we head into the season finale. We circle back to a lot of different scenes and scenarios that we've seen in previous episodes, specifically, a new perspective on Ciri’s timeline from Episode 1. And that's what we're gonna be able to talk about with Geralt's timeline today. In Geralt's opening scene, he witnesses the approaching Nilfgaardian army in the Amell Pass.
JOSH: That scene in the beginning of the episode where they're showing the sheer size of the Nilfgaardian Army scared the shit out of Geralt.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
JOSH: What little reactions he has, how scared he was.
ELORA: Very big hmm. Well, I think that's scaring combination with him already doubting from the previous few episodes. They've made sure that he has enough doubts about abandoning his child of surprise that, if he really sees that she's being threatened, he is going to take action now. And I think an army that big that'll make an impression. Like, he is sure now.
ALYSSA: This is something that he’s seeing with his own eyes. He's witnessing the migration of Nilfgaardian forces to Cintra. And then that kind of comes to a head when he then goes to Cintra speaks with Mousesack about this impending doom. Mousesack seems a little skeptical. He’s unwilling to help Geralt at first. And then eventually they make it to Calanthe. Calanthe has no regard for what Geralt has witnessed. You know, in my opinion, she does end up kind of being blinded by her own ego here. When the witcher and Calanthe actually meet for the first time in 12 years, Calanthe is very angry toward Geralt and very cold toward him. She cites the fact that he never came back for his child of surprise. In the context of the show, it has now been 12 years since Pavetta and Duny's wedding. Calanthe shows a lot of resentment for the witcher for never coming back. So, why should Calanthe give her only granddaughter to someone who never cared to come back for her?
ELORA: I think she's really projecting a lot of, of her, her anger about her daughter's death on him. I think she needs someone to blame for that and he was there. And he was on the opposite sides from her argument. So, he's the perfect one to point out for that. And that combined with a little bit of her arrogance probably leads to her completely just shutting him down.
JOSH: Yeah, I think Calanthe must think that, if Geralt wasn't there at the wedding, she wouldn't have married Duny. And then both Duny and Pavetta wouldn't have died in the storm. And—
ELORA: Yeah.
JOSH: —I think, since she can't blame Duny, now she's gonna blame Geralt.
ELORA: He's still alive to blame.
JOSH: Exactly.
ALYSSA: Here, we get to see, I think, Calanthe’s preparation. She's been dealing with these skirmishes for however many years. She mentions to the head of her guard, you know, these uprising – these pretenders have been coming for years. And Calanthe believes she can stomp out Nilfgaard in the same way as we've seen in previous episodes of the stories, specifically, the first one. That arrogance and that ego going into battle is what betrays her and leads to the fall of Cintra. And that's all pretty grim especially because we spend most of the season getting to see Cintra in its glory and in its beauty just to have, obviously, fall in the first episode and again in the next.
ELORA: I noticed that I find it very hard to notice Calanthe’s weak points, I guess because I just like – I’m enamored with her as a character. She's great. But then I think about her being the same person that's, you know, killed a lot of elves.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
ELORA: And then I can see a bit more that she is the same person that also sees these armies as, yeah, nothing more than just, like, a little challenge maybe. But it's no different than all the little other skirmishes she's done to protect Cintra.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
JOSH: Yeah, especially when they call Cintra the Jewel the North.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
JOSH: And, when they show Nilfgaard in the wedding episode, they're nothing.
ALYSSA: Yeah.
JOSH: Even if she was to believe Geralt that people are coming, she'd be like, “Yeah. So what? It’s Nilfgaard. I'll beat them like I beat everyone else.”
ELORA: She just completely has missed that Nilfgaard is not like some backwater country anymore. They're now a full army.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: And I think that, from the other conversations that we've seen throughout the series, it's really clear that Calanthe has a lot of pride for Cintra and that she's done a lot to protect it, particularly, in the years after Pavetta and Duny's death. I'm sure if she would have spent, you know, years and years fortifying just the city alone, that she would probably believe herself to be invincible to an extent. I mean it's pretty – it's pretty crazy. And, Elora, you had a note here about something that Mousesack and Geralt said to her as well.
ELORA: Yeah, I noticed that they mentioned a Law of Surprise a lot of times in this episode, obviously. Mousesack says King's who've tried to outbid destiny have ended up on pikes. That's where I, I thought, “Does Mousesack believe or are we supposed to believe that her death and maybe the fall of Cintra are all because she refused to obey the Law of Surprise?” Because my tendency is to think, “Well, but, I guess, like Geralt, I'm skeptical.” But, in a world where magic exists, maybe it's not so crazy.
ALYSSA: Yeah, the comparison that I've seen, you know, online has been destiny in The Witcher is very similar to the force in Star Wars.
ELORA: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: And it just kind of has this overarching control. You know, maybe it's the physics of the world and maybe it's just a plot device. I guess we'll see.
ELORA: They, they mentioned it again bargaining with destiny in that way. So, if she believes it in the end, then she will believe that it's her fault that her city has fallen or country has fallen. That's rough.
ALYSSA: Yeah. I guess, at this point, we can really go into how she tries to outwit destiny. When Calanthe and Geralt meet, she tries to bribe the witcher into leaving, but he refuses and says he can't be bought. Instead, Calanthe attempts to trick the witcher by giving him a false Ciri. Geralt follows a passageway outside and witnesses the false Ciri address the real one as Your Highness. This is the scene that we see in the very first episode of the series, where, in the first episode, she's outside playing knucklebones with some of the local boys. Now, we're seeing the scene from another perspective – from Geralt's perspective. And we know that they see each other. This is why Ciri gives a mysterious kind of longing glance towards some passageway in the castle. It turns out that Geralt was – had been standing there. And we find that out six, seven episodes later.
ELORA: That got me so excited when, when I realized that that was what they were doing.
JOSH: What I really liked about that scene was, even before Geralt went out to see the real Ciri, the way Geralt grabs his medallion – I think the first time they actually showed his medallion reacting to magic, I think, Mousesack was trying to do some magic to try to tell him in a way that, “Something's off here. You need to figure it out. But I, I can't exactly tell you but something's off.”
ELORA: Yeah, that was a good point. I hadn't even noticed that that was happening before I saw your comments.
JOSH: I love that fact that the medallion in the book – that it does that. That I'm glad that they're incorporating it into the show even if it's very subtle.
ELORA: Yeah.
ALYSSA: I think we're gonna get a chance to talk into a little bit of production later. But, in regards to I think the plot and the mythology around witchers, there's a lot that is inferred or has to be inferred by the audience in this adaptation. Things like magic are kind of explained in the context of the worlds, but let's say the details of like witcher senses, for example, or the way that they conduct themselves, a lot of it is stuff that we see on screen but isn't explicitly explained. It's nice to even get a little hint of that even if we might come back to it more explicitly in later seasons or later episodes.
ELORA: I have thought, with the conjunction of the spheres, I feel like a few sentences in the book and maybe a few sentences in the series so I can piece together vaguely what happens. But they never actually go into it. I feel—
ALYSSA: Yeah.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: That seems to be Sapkowski’s style. Like, he introduces a thing just enough to make it relevant to the plot and then just runs away --
ELORA: Yeah.
ALYSSA: —from explaining anything else about it.
PRESENT ALYSSA: Hey, guys, it's Alyssa. So, we recorded this episode in May. And, two months later in July, Netflix, Lauren Hissrich, and Declan de Barra announced Blood Origins, a spin-off actually centering around the conjunction of the spheres and the first witchers on the continent. So, Elora seemed to get her wish and keep following WitcherFlix and his “Tidings from Toussaint” updates for continual news on the spin-off.
ALYSSA: Oh, well.
ELORA: To get back to your point, I wonder what exactly Mousesack did to make it [Inaudible 22:34] because I watched it again after, after reading that and I tried to spot exactly where it happened. And that look that Mousesack gives him through the door does make me think that it's him. But what is he doing exactly? Like, I don't see him doing magic. In short stories, he, he communicates nonverbally.
ALYSSA: He does in A “Question of Price.”
ELORA: Maybe they're trying to show that.
JOSH: That's what I was thinking. It may not show the magic, but just that look when they just do a little bit just to trigger the medallion going off.
ALYSSA: Yeah, it's interesting because I don't know if it's very clearly stated that Mousesack is a druid and not a mage. But I think, for a first-time viewer watching the show, the difference is, one, not really there and, two, probably doesn't matter. So, I think it's interesting to see the differences in the magic that the mages could do versus Mousesack.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: The way that it's shot it's almost like Geralt is called to have that discovery. Like, a door opens mysteriously at the end of the hall. I actually skipped over that scene when I'm watching it this morning because it's like a three to four-minute shot of him just walking down corridors. And, like, the music gets really eerie and kind of mysterious. And then he ends up in the courtyard. I wonder to what extent that could just be, you know, the Law of Surprise or destiny calling Geralt out into the street. But, at least, that's what I got from watching that scene or not watching that scene again.
ELORA: I thought it could also be Mousesack, but I don't know how far his magic stretches. I guess that's another thing that we just don't know.
JOSH: Yeah.
ELORA: If he is specifically trying to show Geralt Ciri if he opens the door, maybe, but I don't know. Maybe that's a reach.
ALYSSA: And there's a very clear impact from Geralt understanding who's the real Ciri and who's the false Ciri. Geralt goes back inside the castle and immediately confronts Calanthe. Changing his wig in the process, it looks much better in this than it does in the previous and the following scenes. But, yeah, he confronts Calanthe, who has absolutely no remorse, for attempting to trick the witcher. And she tells him upfront she's queen to all of Cintra but grandmother to one, which is how she justifies not only trying to trick him but also in using someone else's daughter in order to do so. And, at the end of the scene, Calanthe dismisses Geralt leaving him in Eist’s hands, who ultimately locks him up in the gate-keep.
ELORA: That gates false down exactly perfectly. Yes, it’s like they marked an X exactly where Geralt has this stuff so that it would fall down around him.
JOSH: I was thinking the exact same. I was like, “Wow, they done that thing up very well.”
ELORA: It’s a Looney Tunes level trap.
ALYSSA: When I watched it again this morning, I was like, “Was there another guard there just sitting and waiting to drop the gates?”
ELORA: Yeah, the most dramatic moment.
ALYSSA: This is it. This is it.
JOSH: What I found most interesting about that scene is that, even with all the times that you shouldn't mess with destiny, Queen Calanthe is still trying to mess with it.
ALYSSA: Hmm.
JOSH: She eventually finds out what happens when you mess with destiny.
ALYSSA: Yeah.
ELORA: I, I think she might not be thinking completely rationally. I think she's like grieving her daughter and she will do anything. She's not – she doesn't care if, if the whole – well, all, all of Cintra falls down. If Ciri makes it, it's okay. But, yeah, absolutely, she just still keeps going.
ALYSSA: It must come back to ego or a sense – a false sense as we'll see of invincibility. Calanthe is one of my favorite characters, too. When we did the short story, A Question of Price in Episode 4, all of my notes were just Calanthe quotes. That's all I talked about the whole time. It was just the bars that she had throughout the whole entire episode. The soul and the spirit of the character is still very much the same in the Netflix adaptation, I think. That really is, to what extent, like her against the world and the world doesn't stand a chance, I think, is the impression that I get from Calanthe. There's absolutely nothing that she's incapable of in her eyes.
ELORA: Yeah. And she's had it confirmed a lot before, I guess, that she really is the lioness, and she's good at – in battle, and she's good in court. Well, maybe she's not great in court. She's better in battle probably. But she, she believes it. Destiny is also just another little army that she can just squash.
ALYSSA: At this point, we see, again, a lot of scenes from the very first episode of the series that detail the siege on Cintra after the Battle of Marnadal. Once Nilfgaard has breached the gate, Geralt escapes the cell. And, at that moment, Calanthe has returned from Marnadal wounded and sends Mousesack to find the Witcher, but he's already gone. We get a much clearer perspective on a lot of ambiguous things that we saw on Episode 1. So, for example, we finally hear Mousesack’s assignment, the requests that Calanthe made of him. It turns out that was to find Geralt who had been locked in the gate-keep. That's not something that Ciri knew. So, it makes sense that we didn't hear it in Episode 1 when she was the perspective that we had of the scene. Eventually, we see how everything shakes out. Geralt escapes his cell and goes looking for Ciri. By the time Mousesack makes it to him, the witcher has already escaped and he can't directly bring Geralt to Ciri. That whole thing is incredibly unfortunate.
JOSH: What I love about that scene is just Geralt just meditating during the whole siege. And he finally wakes up and there’s a loud blast above him. Like, “Oh.”
ELORA: Yeah, he couldn't get out all that time. Because he does it, maybe, yeah.
JOSH: Yeah. He’s just sitting there just minding his own business while a whole city is collapsing.
ELORA: Regenerating his health.
JOSH: Exactly.
ALYSSA: He does end up needing it. Like, the whole city is just completely under siege. The Cintran people are completely slaughtered by the Nilfgaardian army. The last few scenes that we see from Geralt's timeline are Geralt’s out in the streets of Cintra when he sees Calanthe’s fall from the tower. He enters the castle desperately searching for Ciri, who has already escaped with her guard, and, instead, finds a Nilfgaardian who prophesies at him and starts spouting Nilfgaardian propaganda.
ELORA: Yeah, two points about this guy, my first one is that Geralt has half killed him by the time that he asks about Ciri. At which point, I would not sell the truth. My second point is that I would have liked to hear the rest of that propaganda because it started out the same way that the prophecy at the end of the episode does. So, I was wondering what exactly is it that the Nilfgaardians believe and what is it that, that they're going after exactly?
JOSH: Yeah, they almost like cult–like, following of the White Flame is very interesting way that they’ve made Nilfgaard and how they're so dedicated to the cause of taking Cintra and taking all this land.
ELORA: He, he reminds me of one of the French kings. The one that's the Sun King. That one. Yeah, maybe just because of the Sun.
ALYSSA: It makes sense.
ELORA: When they used to think that kings were, you know, chosen by god to be the king, I feel like that's the way they see him. He's not just human, I think, in their eyes.
JOSH: I can – I can definitely see that. Them almost revering him as a literal god in their kingdom and they'll do anything for him as he is a god.
ELORA: They see it as doing good thing. They see it as helping Cintra become – I don't know – modern country, I think.
JOSH: I, I wrote somewhere in here about the way leading up to the talk about how they're helping out Cintra. And it's almost like a colonialism kind of thing—
ELORA: Yeah.
JOSH: —where they're taking over to help the savages and to bring their better way of life to these people. So, it's interesting just to see the, the similarities between those two world powers, both our world and in their world.
ELORA: Yeah.
ALYSSA: It's interesting because we've kind of seen Nilfgaard set up as this very big villain throughout the entire series. But they’re still as equally mysterious to us in this episode as they were in previous episodes. We didn't see the progression from, as we said, that backwater country that we saw in Episode 4. We still don't really know why – as you said, why they're so cult-like, where these beliefs come from. But, hopefully, we'll be able to break it down in further seasons of the show.
ELORA: I think they'll – they'll come back to the change from backwater country to full nation, I think. Maybe. I'd like them to.
ALYSSA: Yeah.
JOSH: The same way they had, like, in this episode – now, I’ll start from the books – with this episode, but they add a lot of background and stuff like that to what was going on. I really do hope they show the rise of Nilfgaard and what exactly Emperor Emhyr did to that country --
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
JOSH: —to make them this global superpower.
ELORA: And it, it's a more compelling feeling if you know more about them, too. If they're just pure evil, you know, you see them using black magic. And they're clearly depicted as the, the bad guy. But then you hear, in this episode, some things that almost sounds like good things to do or – no, that's not quite it. At least, believe that they're treating their people well.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
ELORA: I feel like I remember in the books as well that they are necessarily pure evil. And that maybe they're no worse than the other kingdoms Because they – those are also not great.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
ELORA: That is, to me, a more interesting perspective than they are the pure evil force.
ALYSSA: I think it very much comes down to the idea that everyone is the hero of their own story. So, I think, as you said, it's going to be really interesting to see. And it would make a very compelling story to understand their motivations on a very base level and have us empathize with Nilfgaard to an extent. It would make the story a lot more complex for us as viewers.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: Ah, all exciting stuff. Because coming from the books – this is a spoiler for the show. So, coming from the books, I have feelings about Nilfgaard. I'm not gonna say more than that.
ELORA: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: But I think it'd be really good to see that play out on screen. And I hope that we get that in the coming seasons of the show.
ELORA: I think they've done a great job so far with filling in the, the little blanks. So, it would be great. They might.
ALYSSA: Geralt’s story ends rather abruptly. Did you guys have anything else to add about it? Or any questions that you wanted to discuss?
ELORA: Well, no, just the general note that Geralt’s storyline was very exciting to watch because it really felt like this puzzle that you've been working on since the beginning of the season that finally come together and you could fill everything in. And I can imagine, especially if you come to the show completely new and you really, really have to work at the story, that this is a really satisfying storyline to watch.
JOSH: This episode brings a lot of stuff together that you had no idea what was going on. And it helped fill in a lot of pieces to help you more understand the story a lot better.
ALYSSA: Again, setting up ourselves and setting up the rest of the audience for that final series finale where everything needs to make sense.
ELORA: Yeah. They've been throwing hints every episode. I, I really like the way they connect the storylines. But, if you haven't been able to follow that, then here they tell you a few of the storyline bits.
ALYSSA: And I think this is one of the first times that we'll see, in the series, that Geralt’s timeline aligns really nicely with Yennefer's. And they're in separate places.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: At this point, we're seeing Geralt and kind of what is happening in Cintra versus what is happening in other parts of the continent with Yennefer's storyline. In her storyline, Yennefer is recruited by Vilgefortz, a member of the Brotherhood of Sorcerers, and Tissaia to join them in a fight against Nilfgaard. In her opening scene, Yennefer visits Istredd at a Nilfgaardian excavation site in Nazair. Their lives have diverged since Aretuza. Yennefer proposes renewing their relationship and Istredd rejects her. She's then approached by Vilgefortz of Roggeveen to go to Aretuza and support the Brotherhood of Sorcerers.
JOSH: I think that scene was very well made. You can see the disconnect between Istredd and Yennefer now and how much they've grown apart since their relationship back at Aretuza. What I found really funny about that scene was just Vilgefortz creep in the background behind Yennefer and Istredd as they talk about the relationship. And then the minute Istredd leaves he kind of like stalks over.
ELORA: When the scene starts, you can see him in the background just barely pretending to not be listening.
ALYSSA: Mhmm. While I was home this past week, I recently watched a video about what groups do – how lighting works. It's really interesting to watch that scene after seeing a video about how lighting works. And this is like my very, very simple understanding of it. So, please forgive me if you're a professional in this field. But, when you watch the scene, there's a key light that comes in directly in front of Yennefer that, you know, shows her face. But, because of the layout of this tavern, Vilgefortz also has a direct light on his face even though he's in the background. And that's not something that you would probably normally see in a busy inn scene like this. But, because that character is going to be important later, we already know by the lighting and by the position of the camera that he might be important. Same thing happens, when the camera turns around and looks at Istredd, we actually see Vilgefortz’s back. He's still in frame while they're having that intimate conversation.
ELORA: Yeah, it's really nice to see how they use those kinds of techniques to tell the story as well. Because you're not going to be aware of it probably when you're watching, but it is working.
ALYSSA: It's almost like a principle of good design and good production. That, if you're doing your job and your work is good, that people don't notice it. So, it's pretty cool that, like, as you said, when it came to how production elements help tell the story, I think that they've done a really nice job in the scene here. And it's been really successful.
ELORA: They make sure that you know this Vilgefortz before he starts talking. The first time I, I watched this episode, I guess, I was so drawn into it, but I wasn't fully thinking maybe logically. Again, probably, like I said with Colombia, I just see Yennefer and I'm like, “Yeah, there she goes,” without really thinking about her motivations. I just like to watch her work. I guess I was surprised to see her returned to Istredd because I felt that, the way they broke up and the things she said then, they felt really true to me or, at least, I felt that they wouldn't be happy together for those reasons. But then I thought logically. I thought it was a really nice way to show that, that Yennefer has changed since the last time they saw each other.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
ELORA: And, now, actually, those things do sound good to her because she's seen what power and exciting courts are like. And they're not very exciting. And maybe she just wants to be able to trust someone and have a nice, calm life.
ALYSSA: I wonder what Yennefer's motivations are here. You know, it could just always be that the grass is greener no matter where she is. I don't know. There's a few things that I noticed in the scene when it came to how Yennefer conducted herself and how she interacted with Istredd. They're always kind of in each other's space. Just their body language is incredibly intimate. There's a few times that it looks like they're going to kiss or become intimate before they actually kiss later in the scene. The other thing that stood out to me was, when Istredd is asking Yennefer, essentially, why now, she tells him, “You know, I've had the experiences that I wanted. They weren't what I needed.” She basically said something that amounted to the people who wanted me – one of the power that came with my position at court. They didn't want my power. Istredd then asks like, “Am I the only one who sees it?” And it turns back to Yennefer's face and she kind of falters for a second.
ELORA: Hmm.
ALYSSA: Part of me wondered if that's because of Geralt. If she already had those experiences with Geralt and she knows that he is one other person aside from Istredd, who she had that kind of relationship with and who she had that kind of trust with.
ELORA: I thought about that as well. She doesn't respond to it directly, I think. She avoids the question.
JOSH: I thought the same exact thing when I first saw that. When they did that line and she, like, has that look in her face that she's thinking about Geralt during that.
ALYSSA: It makes me wonder. You know, we've seen her in the previous episode, Rare Species, where she would do anything for a child of her own, which makes me wonder what kind of sacrifices she's making in order to pursue this relationship with Istredd. If she's like settling for something that she can't get elsewhere or if she's just resigned that she can't find it elsewhere, so, she might as well be with Istredd.
ELORA: Yeah. Maybe she believes that she has – still had this option on standby. But, now, it turns out that he doesn't want that anymore.
ALYSSA: When Yennefer first finds Istredd, she comes across a Nilfgaardian excavation site. Some of the kind of, at least, in my opinion, conflicting things that we know about it, one is that there are guards around to this whole site and one of them shouts – you'll see it in the subtitles if you watch the show – that the people who are working are not allowed to have water until they're done. But, later in the scene, Istredd says that the people who are in the camp were starving before Nilfgaard came. Yennefer then condemns this by saying that, “Well, everyone has the same thing.” It's interesting to actually see what life under Nilfgaardian rule is like for ourselves. Before we see in other parts of the story what nilfgaardian warfare looks like because it's incredibly brutal, we'll see in a later scene Fringilla’s first hand account of what Nilfgaard is like as well.
ELORA: The thing that, that Istredd mentions that they were starving before, I think, that might be how they keep power because, if they had it terrible before and they give them something slightly better, even if it's still not fair or good, they might be less likely to protest or to return to their old ways if they were even able to. At least, Nilfgaard is the one that feeds them even if they feed them bad foods or very little.
JOSH: I thought it was interesting as if they're treating Nilfgaards almost like a – sort of a communist-esque nation in their world with making sure everyone is fed even if it is the exact same thing. It's interesting to see if they're trying to allude to a being like that or if we'll see something more in the future. It is looking like that for that one scene.
ALYSSA: As I said before, I think seeing the scene paints a much more holistic picture of Nilfgaard, not only what they are now but why they're kind of doing the things that they're doing and what motivates them. You know, we understand that a lot of the people who are now under Nilfgaardian rule were under corrupt kings. They were under people who only served themselves and didn't serve their communities and their countries. As you said, Elora, even giving people something marginally better may turn allegiances. I think this provides some, at least, sympathy, if not to the Nilfgaardian Empire, at least, to the people who are currently living in it. But I guess we'll see. Istredd starts talking about monoliths and his ultimate desire is to continue his research. He briefly alludes to his research possibly providing hints or possibly bringing new evidence for the prophecy. He says explicitly, like, the prophecy. I guess, hopefully, if this is another piece of, like, foreshadowing or another piece of the puzzle about what we see toward the end of this episode with Ciri and what we see in previous episodes with the Nilfgaardian army that, whatever this prophecy is, it actually comes to fruition.
ELORA: I wanted to mention that monolith, the design of it is the same as the design of Aretuza. It has the same kind of harsh lines and colors, which would make sense since they're both supposed to be from before the conjunction of the spheres, but that was a nice touch.
JOSH: Yeah, I've – I’ve always wondered about these monoliths, especially when he's talking about how they might be able to provide the past and the future and just magic in general.
ALYSSA: Because we have a few. There's, like, the Tower of the Gull. If we're thinking of the same kind of monolith, there's the Tower of the Gull. There's the one that's part of Cintra. I wonder how those things will play out. In the following scenes, Yennefer accepts Vilgefortz’s invitation. And she enters Aretuza for the first time in years. She's grown resentful of her time there, which colors her interactions with the current novices. Tissaia intervenes, confronting Yennefer. A lot of Yennefer's time in the storyline is dedicated to her interactions with the current Aretuzan novices, but it's pretty shady. Like, she – yeah, she, like, goes into her old room. There's a bunch of other students there. She gives them psychedelics and then scares the crap out of them by showing them the eel mill. Like, it's – it's a little messed up.
ELORA: I get the eel mill. But, every time I rewatch it, I get to the psychedelics and I'm just like, “How – why – what do you think you're convincing them off by doing this?”
JOSH: It's almost like Rebel Without a Cause sort of thing.
ELORA: Yeah.
JOSH: Screw the system.
ELORA: She just wants to kick against the system of Aretuza in general. It doesn't matter what.
ALYSSA: We're seeing Yennefer in an environment that was used to break her and to remold her. And, now, she's back and it's an entirely different experience this time around. Presumably, she's been gone for decades. We know she spent at least 30 or 40 years in Aedirn’s court before the events of Episode 3, Betrayer Moon. And then who knows how long it has been since Betrayer Moon to now. In that time, we learned that Aretuza started accepting students from money instead of only accepting girls who had a conduit moment of magic. So, she's a little disheartened by that throughout the episode.
ELORA: It's probably much harder to turn one of those students from money into an eel than someone who their family wanted to get rid of or who didn't come from a very clear background at all. Someone would start to ask questions if it's from some kind of noble family. So, I don't know if that would grant them the privilege of remaining human or if that meant that they would become full sorceresses just because of their status and their money.
ALYSSA: We don't necessarily get an explicit reason for why Tissaia is letting these girls in other than one of the girls mentions like the Brotherhood thinks it's a good idea and Tissaia mentions, “You know, you have to compromise in order to survive.” But the reason for survival, at least, I didn't see an explicit one.
JOSH: If they were paid to go there and they didn't have a conduit moment, would they even work if they are turned into eels to help power Aretuza? Would they even be able to turn into mages at all? Like, are they – are they just useless?
ELORA: What are they even doing in their classes at this point?
JOSH: Yeah.
ALYSSA: Yeah, they’re not really useful and they can't really be eels if they can't conduct magic. But it sounds like, from Yennefer's conversation with the novices, I guess, Aretuza is just using them for their families’ resources. One of the girls mentioned that her payment for education was, like, 50 horses or something like that. So, maybe it's just a matter of not just funding the school but funding the Brotherhood's initiatives throughout the continent.
JOSH: Well, I feel like, if you come from a noble family and you're sending your daughter to this prestigious school to learn to become a mage and then they can't do that – they can't turn your daughter into a mage, I feel like you'd want, like, payment back or you talk bad about the school.
ALYSSA: Right.
JOSH: I mean I didn't think too much into this, but it's just interesting the way that they have this done.
ALYSSA: Right. A poor Yelp review and request to speak to a manager and we'll see what happens. I don't know. I think it just shows, as Yennefer says, how much the school has fallen in terms of its prestige. But that conversation is then cut really short. It's an emergency conclave of Northern mages as we learned from Triss, who we met in Episode 3, Betrayer Moon, in Geralt’s storyline. At this conclave, they've just been notified of the battle in Marnadal. So, this is then happening simultaneously with Geralt’s storyline now. And they're trying to decide if they should intervene between Marnadal and Cintra. There's a lot of tension between northern mages who want to help Cintra regardless of their rejection of mages over the decades and mages who want to let Cintra be as they are. As they're debating, Fringilla enters insisting that Cintra is their only target. There's a vote and the Brotherhood votes to leave Cintra to their own devices and to their own defenses, therefore, sealing their fate. Ignoring the vote, Tissaia begs Yennefer to join the fight.
ELORA: That conversation between them is very interesting because their dynamic has completely flipped, right? Tissaia is the one in a position of, of weakness because she's asking Yennefer for something. That expression that Yennefer has during that conversation is really – she's looking down on her almost, almost literally I think. She's returned to this school where she was in a position of weakness. But, now, she does kind of feel above it, I think. The Brotherhood is still very disrespectful of her, I guess. But her relationship with Tissaia has changed.
JOSH: What I find interesting about this is how much power Fringilla has within Nilfgaard that she comes to this meeting and explains everything that they're doing. She’s basically an ambassador for the whole entire kingdom talking about what they're going to do, what they have been doing, and they're not going to attack any other nations after this.
ALYSSA: It's interesting to see the possible corruption within the Brotherhood at this point, which, you know, they start calling each other out on the awful atrocities that they've done to their communities and to each other. Stregobor throws Vilgefortz’s military experience back at him causing Tissaia to bring up the Curse of the Black Sun and Stregobor for killing babies because of it. Then we see Fringilla come in. She then reminds the entire room that she's only in the position that she's in because Yennefer declined it. I say decline, but really she did that whole backwards thing in the – at the end of Betrayer Moon and got Fringilla outed from that position. Fringilla's uncle is the one who proposes keeping out of Cintra’s problems, paving the way for his niece to go in and demolish the whole place. You know, it's interesting, I think, as we've seen in Episode 3, how powerless Tissaia is in this environment, you know, against all these other mages and against the Brotherhood. And then we see her resolve to ignore it and then to go and fight on her own with the other mages.
ELORA: I wondered if what they say is true. Fringilla is very adamant that they're a better leader for the countries that they occupy than the leaders that were there before. Since we saw the scene at Istredd’s dig site, arguably, they're still not well off, but they're maybe slightly better off. Do they actually believe that?
JOSH: The northern mages seem to believe that Fringilla was lying at all when she was saying that they're not going to take anything north of Cintra. I thought that was strange.
ALYSSA: I wonder if part of that is because of her uncle.
ELORA: Mhmm.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: That he would just kind of pave the way for her, regardless, of her motivations or what she says.
JOSH: Yeah.
ALYSSA: I agree. Like, very few of them are really skeptical about her intentions. I wonder about their morality as well and where their allegiances lie just because it's very clear in Tissaia’s actions that they believe that this war, no matter who it's – who it's fought against, is still wrong. Whereas Stregobor, Artorius, you know, they believe that politics should dictate if they get involved or not. So, it's interesting to see, like, how their morality shapes the coming events, which is a huge theme that we started in Episode 1 with Geralt.
ELORA: They're not making the ethical choice necessarily. They're making the choice that make sure that they can stay in the position they want because, otherwise, maybe Artorius makes that difficult for them.
JOSH: And I would think, if they're making a selfish choice, Fringilla just admitted that they put mages into slavery, essentially. If they continue to go north after Cintra, they could be put into servitude for the Nilfgaardian army. You would think they'd want to not have to do that, but I guess they didn't think that far.
ALYSSA: That does make sense with what we've seen in other parts of the episode. When Vilgefortz first approaches Yennefer, he mentions to her why they're being quiet and why they're operating in incognito because Nilfgaard brings in mages. So, they have to kind of sneak out. And then we see that when Triss questions Fringilla about using mage soldiers and Fringilla confirms this. This is something that we'll see a payoff to in the next episode. There's a couple of interesting lines about, you know, their motivations as they're arguing. Fringilla says, “In Nilfgaard, we know what it's like to have corrupt leaders. But, under our new leader, Emperor Emhyr, we've changed. We’ve strengthen trade, funded research, torn down walls whilst Queen Calanthe has done nothing but put them up.” Tissaia says, in response, “I'm not here to defend Cintra, but I will defend our way of life, the Brotherhood, the academies, the order that we've built up over centuries. You've rejected it all, Fringilla.” And she responds, “That's not true. We've modified it. Most of us came from Aretuza and Ban Ard. We've simply chartered a different path guided by the White Flame. That makes us cousins, not enemies.” And then it kind of goes into the differences between the approaches to magic and culture between the northern kingdoms and Nilfgaard. Yep, but we're seeing the cult-like mentality of Nilfgaard in this conversation with Fringilla as well.
JOSH: What I thought interesting was Fringilla talking about the dark and light magic that there really isn’t so – no such thing. It's just magic. They decide what they think is light and what they think is dark. And, Nilfgaard, they’re like that. They're gonna do – they're gonna use magic, whether it be the dark magic or light magic. They're going to use whatever they can to win.
ELORA: Yeah, I think that's the similar kind of thing that they, they don't care about the ethics of it if – maybe the dark magic is defined as dark magic because it's cruel to the person casting it or to someone around them. But that doesn't matter to them. They just use magic.
ALYSSA: The discourse throughout the scene makes it explicit what the difference between the northern realms and Nilfgaard has been throughout every episode proceeding this and then also sets up really nicely the purpose of conflict as we'll see in the following episode much more. By the end of Yennefer's storyline, this is where Tissaia then asks Yennefer for her help, again, setting up the events of the next and final episode. I feel like there’s – there's so much that just gets set up in this episode. So, it's like we’re – and then it's just like – at the very end, it's like okay. And we'll talk about it next time.
ELORA: You'll watch the next episode immediately, anyway. This is just a long two parts last episode.
ALYSSA: Absolutely. In Ciri’s storyline, the fleeing princess stops in a market town on her way Skellige. A woman tries to offer her kindness. Instead, Ciri steals her horse and rides off. She makes a small fire for herself in a field, where she's approached by some of the boys from Cintra who threatened to give her to Nilfgaard and attack. Ciri loses control and begins to prophesize, “Verily I say unto you, the era of the sword and axe is nigh, the era of the wolf's blizzard. The Time of the White Chill and the White Light is nigh, the Time of Madness and the Time of Contempt. She screams and then the episode closes.
ELORA: That, that prophecy is shot very nicely as well. The, the way they changed the shots very quickly to make it kind of unsettling and they close up on her face to make sure it's, like, kind of otherworldly and strange, that was nice.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
JOSH: Yeah, I agree. I, I think that very well – well, very well shot. And the [Inaudible 53:15] was great. It made it seem creepy and, like, demonic in the way that they kind of shot it—
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
JOSH: —but also prophesizing the future.
ALYSSA: It's disorienting. This isn't the first time that we've heard at least part of this prophecy. In one of the previous episodes after slaughtering an entire tavern, the knight who has been chasing Ciri wipes his bloodied sword and says, “The time of the sword and the axe is nigh.” At this point, we know that it's something that's – that could be connected to the Nilfgaardian cult. And it's interesting to see then Ciri say it here. And, again, I wonder if there's a connection to Istredd talking about, like, capital TV prophecy as well. There's I think more questions after, after this than there are answers.
ELORA: I, I think Ciri’s whole, whole storyline in, in all of the episodes basically are just – are slowly losing trust in the world, slowly discovering that she has this power, which is terrifying to her as well. And, now, she fully uses that power so that, by the last episode, she is not the girl she was anymore. She's ready for Season 2.
JOSH: I always wondered if Calanthe and Pavetta already talked to Ciri about their source power within their lineage.
ELORA: Mhmm.
JOSH: But, from what her face seems after her source burst—
ELORA: Mhmm.
JOSH: —it seemed like there was never any discussion about that.
ELORA: Yeah, I don't quite remember how old Ciri was – is supposed to be when, when Pavetta dies.
ALYSSA: In the books, it has to be before she’s six because Geralt visits her when she's six and Pavetta was already dead. I, I had imagined it’d be early on here because Calanthe talks about raising Ciri as her own. She looks older than 12. But, based on the dialogue, I'd imagine she'd be 11 or 12. I would say, like, that must have happened between the time she was, like, three and six if I was to guess.
ELORA: I think maybe she was too young for that conversation when it was Pavetta who would have that conversation with her. And I think Calanthe really hates everything that reminds her of, like, Law of Surprise and all the supernatural kind of things.
ALYSSA: So, the two times that we've seen this reaction from Ciri where we – or, actually, three. The first was when Calanthe was dying and she sent Ciri away. That's when she had, like, her first moment where kind of all the glasses shook. The second time is when she escaped that night in the first episode after the fall of Cintra. She had again, like, a magical powerful moment, bringing down yet another monolith. This is the third time, I believe, that we’ve seen on screen that this happens. And it's much stronger than the first two times and is very consuming. Like, she completely goes into an uncontrollable trance and starts prophesying. The first time, it was just like a little bit. Too little hints of what happened. And then I guess we'll see here that rule of thirds. The third time it happens, we have a completely different experience contrary to our expectations. To go to the point of has this been talked about before. As I said, the first time that we see this, Ciri is being sent away from her grandmother. When Laszlo takes her away, Calanthe asks Mousesack like, “Did you see that?” Because this is really the first time that Ciri is under duress. This is why it’s coming out. She's been very protected her whole life. This is the first real struggle that she's had.
ELORA: Yeah, maybe the more distress she gets, maybe the stronger the, the response is as well because, now that it's the third time, she's already aware that it's possible that this happens and she's already scared of that happening. And then Dara told her, “You know, you only harm others.” And she fully doesn't trust anyone. So, she's at a very bad – low point in, in her story at that point.
JOSH: She was definitely so protected in her castle walls and within her kingdom that, now she's out in the world, she's seeing all the negativity. You know, the, the struggles everyone goes through outside. And I think it's weighing on her really badly. She's gonna start becoming more – most nihilistic and pessimistic about everything in the world and not trusting anyone and not seeing the good in people. And I'm curious to see how that goes down in the next couple of episodes and next season.
ELORA: And if she would, you know, fully trust Geralt at that point maybe if she's so, yeah, pessimistic about people.
ALYSSA: I think that sets up a really nice struggle for, at least, the first half of Season 2. Calanthe just told Ciri to find Geralt. But, as you said, Elora, why should she trust him? Who is he? What importance does he have to Ciri and Calanthe? We have no idea. So, it'll be interesting to see what happens when those characters really start to get to know each other in Season 2. Before we jump into our standout parts of the episode, we're gonna hand it over to Lars from WitcherFlix for recent news on the Netflix show. When we come back, Elora, Josh, and I will continue our discussion of Before A Fall.
“Tidings from Toussaint”
[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]
LARS FROM WITCHERFLIX: Hey, it's Lars from WitcherFlix and this is "Tidings from Toussaint". Welcome back everybody. Even though England is under lockdown because of the virus, filming for season 2 of The Witcher is still well on its way. The Witcher crew is shooting in England at the moment and let's see what's new on the Witcher set. Fountains Abbey in North Yorkshire has turned into a Witcher hub. Let's see what happened there in the last 2 weeks.
The ruins of the old medieval monastery have turned into an elven palace. Elvish banners with floral sigils as well as atmospheric braziers were placed around the ruins to make it look like it was a place on the Continent. Of course, if you hear elven palace as well as the book "Blood of Elves" (which is adapted for season 2), you automatically think of Shaerrawedd, a very important place for the history of the elves on the Continent. This elven palace lies in ruins in the times of Geralt and Ciri but is a big symbol for the oppression of the elves by the humans. But of course, elves were also roaming the ruins of Fountains Abbey. There were a bunch of elven extras, but we also had our first look at Mecia Simson in costume as the elven sorceress Francesca Findabair. She wears a very delicate dress with a long robe adorned with peacock feathers. Most importantly there is a tiny, little detail you immediately notice about Francesca. She is pregnant. This is different from how she describes herself in the books, as Francesca explicitly states that she is no longer able to bear a child. But if we you look back at Francesca's character description for the casting call, we had already known that Francesca was having a child. It reads as follows: "The most beautiful woman in the world - so beatiful she wears a mask. Clever, politically powerful, a mother who would do anything to protect her child." This gives Francesca a completely new motivation to fight for the elves and possibly makes her even more fierce. Another interesting detail on the set pictures posted by RedanianIntelligence is Francesca how she plucks a white rose. The white rose is another very important symbol in the elven culture on the Continent. The flower symbolizes Aelirenn who started a final suicidal assault against the humans. The elf later got known as the White Rose of Shaerrawedd, the aforementioned elven palace.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CG5toEeDxwk/
https://redanianintelligence.com/2020/10/28/exclusive-first-look-at-francesca-findabair-reveals-a-surprising-change-in-the-witcher-season-2/
Next to the pictures of Francesca we catch our first glimpse at Mimi Ndiweni as Fringilla Vigo in her season 2 dress. It is almost snow white with a lot of intricate details. We can see her talk to Francesca and stroll through the ruins of the palace. What are the two talking about? Sure, if you think about what happens in the books they are surely hatching a plot against the Northern Kingdoms, their common enemy. Fringilla as a representative of the empire of Nilfgaard that wants to conquer the North. And Francesca as leader of the elves who are oppressed by the humans of the North for generations. But Fringilla isn't alone at the elven palace: The Nilfgaardian army has come, too. There were several pictures of Nilfgaardian tents, soldiers, carts and banners around the ruins of Fountains Abbey. Are they here to negotiate with the elves and the Scoi'atael? Moreover we have our first look at the new season 2 Nilfgaardian armor. Eamonn Farren as Cahir has entered the scene as well as some fellow soldiers. The new armour looks very distinct: It's now golden with black trousers and some interesting details like the Great Sun. It gives the impression of elven armor which is quite fitting, as the Nilfgaardians have elven ancestry that dates back almost 1000 years. In the case of Cahir he also wears a new helmet which also has some raven wings, exactly as described in the books.
https://redanianintelligence.com/2020/10/28/exclusive-first-look-at-francesca-findabair-reveals-a-surprising-change-in-the-witcher-season-2/
More over the set was also visit by other actors. Some very sneaky locals took (unfortunately very blurry) pictures of Geralt in his new armor on set. He was accompanied by his trusted horse Roach. Mahesh Jadu as Vilgefortz was also present, which is very fitting if you think about his character arc throughout the main saga. But he wasn't the only mage on set: Myanna Buring as Tissaia, Therica Wilson-Read as Sabrina and Lars Mikkelsen as Stregobor were also filming scenes. But among the most interesting actors who returned to the set is arguably Shaun Dooley who played King Foltest of Temeria in season 1. Now he also shoots some scenes at or around Fountains Abbey according to his Instagram stories. Of course, Foltest returning to the set makes you thinks of one very important scene from the book "Blood of Elves" where the most important kings of the North gather for a secret meeting at Hagge Castle to discuss the political situation with Nilfgaard. This would mean that monarchs like Vizimir of Redania, Henselt of Kaedwen, Demawend of Aedirn and Meve of Lyria and Rivia could soon make an appearance as well.
https://redanianintelligence.com/2020/11/02/signs-point-to-a-conference-of-mages-and-kings-convening-at-fountains-abbey-for-the-witcher-season-2/
https://redanianintelligence.com/2020/11/02/new-photos-from-the-witcher-set-show-yennefer-tissaia-vilgefortz-stregobor-cahir-and-more/
In other, non Fountains Abbey related news Witcher Blood Origin showrunner Declan de Barra has written on Twitter that all the Blood Origin episodes have been outlined and the writers have started to write the actual scripts for the individual episodes. So Witcher series number 2 is also well on its way. Last but not least, Netflix has posted a funny, little Halloween themed video on social media showing the iconic monsters of season 1, including two hidden treats: In this little video eagle-eyed viewers were able to spot two new shots from season 2! The first one shows a very strange, disgusting looking monster that consists of various bones, some flesh and a very eerie eye ball staring into the distance. A monster like this doesn't appear in the books. The second shot shows three spooky skeletons wearing old cloths and pearl necklaces. It's hard to say if Geralt encounters these three skeletons while exploring another crypt or if these three skeletons belong to some important historical figures. Well, we will have to wait and see for ourselves in season 2.
https://twitter.com/declandebarra/status/1322427062859169793
https://youtu.be/MJ0BjNRxxqc
Anyway guys, that's it for me for today. I hope you all stay safe and well. We'll talk again in the next episode of Breakfast in Beauclair. Until then, thanks again for listening and good luck on the path!
[“Tidings from Toussaint” theme music by Bettina Campomanes]
Discussion
ALYSSA: Hey, everyone, welcome back from the break. I'm here with Elora and Josh discussing Before A Fall from Season 1 of Netflix's The Witcher. When we left off, we’ve broken down the plot of the episode. And, now, it's time to dive into the key points and themes that interested us most.
ELORA: I like the way this episode repeats situations that we've seen earlier in the series. It serves a purpose. It shows us that these characters have changed since the beginning of the series. So, Geralt is back in Cintra where he was during the banquets, but that time he was very dismissive of the idea of taking care of this child of surprise. And, now, he's, at least, concerned. Yennefer returns to Aretuza. Aretuza has changed and she has changed. And she's not this powerless, vulnerable person anymore. And Ciri gets an offer of safety, which she did as well in Episode 2 when we were in the Cintran camp. And, this time, she doesn't trust it. She doesn't accept it. And I think that's a really good way of showing us the character development that's been happening. And then I also thought about the repetition that's Sapkowski uses, the sentences that he uses like the Sword of Destiny has two edges or something more, which are beautiful. And, and, every time they're mentioned, they become stronger. And, in the, the times he changes the way he uses them, that has a huge impact. And the show uses that as well because it repeats these locations to show character developments.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
ELORA: But it also repeats almost some shots like Yennefer looking into the mirror. It repeats its themes as well, but they change slightly every time. So, I just thought that was a really interesting phenomenon. And, especially this episode, it demonstrates it's very well, I think.
ALYSSA: As we spoke about earlier, repeating elements also kind of builds out the world and the lore. Like, we see these things multiple times. We build an expectation of it, whether that's then doubled down upon or subverted.
ELORA: I think it's a very satisfying way to tell a story. I look for it in all the books I read, I guess, because I want to write like that. It's like a, a very good detective or a very good mystery, where each element is very important. But you don't know until the third time that it's mentioned that it's important and why it's important. That is just clever writing. That's a well put together product because you don't think about it linearly, I think, when you make it. You probably know where you're going and then you work backwards or you know, “Okay. I need to show an example of the way Ciri is progressing. So, then I will – I will repeat these elements.”
JOSH: I think Sapkowski did a great job with his writing, how he does that same exact thing. And the showrunners implemented it very well in the show and how they took the material that – it was especially needed from the books and put it into the show to make the viewers understand and to really enjoy Sapkowski’s writing and how he does things.
ELORA: It's – it’s that same way of working, but they adapted for a different medium very well.
JOSH: Yeah, exactly.
ALYSSA: It's nice to get not only the cues and dialogue with repetition but also things like visual cues. As you said, Elora, it gives, as an audience, a greater understanding of, again, the motivations behind each of these characters, and why the plot progresses the way that it does, and why events happen on the continent the way that they do. It's just cool. And it's effective.
ELORA: It's why Something More is so – such a good and powerful phrase.
ALYSSA: Mhmm.
ELORA: Because you keep hearing it and it keeps changing its meaning. And then I remember the podcast episode where you read out that, that bit of Something More. And it made you emotional. And it made me emotional as well. And then I read that beautiful story again, like, a few weeks ago. And it still got me. So, it's just really effective.
JOSH: Mhmm.
ALYSSA: Yeah. Someone – I came across a screenshot on my phone because I'll sometimes save really nice things that people from the hanza and from the community send me. But someone had written in a response to that last episode, Episode 15. They're just like, “I've only cried two times listening to your podcast; during Essi Daven’s episode—
ELORA: Yep.
ALYSSA: —A Little Sacrifice, and then during the end of Something More. And I was like, “That makes me sad, but it makes me happy.” I don't know what to tell you. As we spoke about in Episode 15 with Lars, there's an incredible emotional payoff because of the journey that happened in Something More. You know, as you said, Something More is a really good example of that repeating narrative. As we spoke about in Ciri’s timeline, the era of the sword and the axe is neigh. It is something that we've now seen repeated twice between, you know, someone from Nilfgaard versus our main protagonist.
ELORA: Hmm. Yeah, that's a good point.
ALYSSA: It makes it kind of mysterious, especially for new viewers, as to what that interpretation might be. We have someone who we perceive as a villain and not only as any villain, but as Ciri’s personal villain and horror. And then we see her repeat the same words. Completely lost control, she's prophesying. It alludes to something greater than our characters, at least, in my opinion. So, now that we've spoken about some of the structure that goes into the show and its plot, we can turn the conversation over to production, which brings us to Josh.
JOSH: The whole show in its entirety has been an excellent example of quality production with everything from its visual production to how, like you said before, the lighting and how the subtle cues they do to help navigate the story. One of my absolute favorite parts so far has been the costumes of each of the characters. They each have such unique yet descriptive costumes that really portray who they are as a person and a character. One of my favorites that came in this episode was Vilgefortz with his armor/tunic presenting himself as not only a mage but also his background as a mercenary and a fighter. I think they do an excellent job of subtly throwing production things in there that really enhance the show.
ELORA: I, I noticed it with Calanthe’s costumes because she wears that armor, which has the, the lion's paws on its shoulders.
JOSH: Yeah.
ELORA: And then she changes to the dress, which has embroidery exactly where the lion’s paws would be, which is so good. And then her dress looks like a chainmail in, in the kind of fabric that they use. That's so detailed and, like, sets her down as the lioness again.
JOSH: When I first saw her armor with the – with the shoulders and the lion’s paws, I thought that was just incredible work for the costume designer. They have put so much effort into really all the fine details in everyone's wardrobe. And I think it's – it’s just been an amazing job seeing every new piece of clothing they wear and how much work and time has been put into each one of them.
ALYSSA: Yeah, I've spoken about this on previous episodes, notably, Episode 16 with Cyprian and Reza. At the time of recording, it'll come out in about three weeks. So, which is a really exciting way to start the season. But, in Episode 16 with Cyprian and Reza, we talked about the costumes as well. And this is a really great episode to return to that discussion because we see all of the mages. Their costuming is even more elaborate than the costuming that we see. A little bit more modern, but that kind of suits the mages, their purpose, their background. Everything that they have is a little bit more extra than, than what would be expected for the period.
ELORA: I bet there's, like, only a fraction of what the detail in those costumes that I'm going to spots on screen. They really knew what they were doing there.
JOSH: Oh, yeah.
ALYSSA: It made me sad in this episode to see, like, how dirty her velvet gloves were. And then she just threw it into mud.
ELORA: Yeah.
ALYSSA: And I'm like, “They must have – they must have dozens of that for production, but like I died a little bit inside.”
JOSH: It really shows the fact that they put all this time and effort into it. I, I’m really impressed by them. And I cannot wait for how much better they can do in Season 2 with a bigger budget and more resources available to them.
ALYSSA: Especially because I'm really curious to see what happens when the plot progresses, and how that has an impact on production, and how production rises to the challenge. The very last thing we're going to chat about in this episode of Breakfast and Beauclair is comparisons to the original source material. We see a lot of things that weren't explicitly shown in the books. And some of the source material is changed in order to make sense, I think, for the characters and for the medium. Ciri and Yennefer’s storylines are pretty new. So, we never actually see the Battle of Sodden in the books. We just hear about it secondhand from Yurga in Something More, same thing with Ciri’s time as a refugee. This isn’t actually something that we ever see in the books because the majority of short stories are exclusively from Geralt's perspective. We only hear about her time as a refugee briefly throughout the saga.
ELORA: I'm very glad that they did it like this. We mentioned before that – how well they filled in the little gaps that were left by, by the story. And I think that's especially true for Ciri and Yennefer because, if they had followed the books exactly to the letter, Ciri would have appeared maybe once or twice. And I don't know if the viewer would have been prepared for her becoming a main character or if they’d be attached enough to her. And that's true for Yennefer as well. I notice that, when people only play the games, they sometimes just think she's very harsh and much too cold. I really liked that she gets to be harsh and be a love interest at the same time. But I understand how that could be off-putting if you don't understand the context. So, I'm glad they gave her that context because I think that makes her more sympathetic.
JOSH: I do like that they added all of these extra background stuff. Like, especially Yennefer’s time in Aretuza or Ciri’s time running away from the fall of Cintra. I think they're great addition pieces that they added to give the main characters more information about themselves for the latest saga that’s about to come.
ALYSSA: Something that the showrunner, Lauren Hissrich, has noticed is that she wanted to bring in these characters earlier so that, as you said, Elora, we, as viewers, actually have a connection to these people. I think there are certain parts of the approach that definitely confused people. It's, I think, common knowledge that a lot of people were shuffled around by the timelines, especially for ones that were new to the show. But it does do its purpose. We do understand Yennefer and Ciri. And we can connect with them as viewers as well.
ELORA: I guess I'll be glad when it becomes more chronological, I assume, by the second season because I just want people to like the Witcher as much as I do. So, I want it to be accessible. But I personally really like the jumping around because I, I really liked piecing it together and hearing, like, one string of a sentence repeated between two timelines to sort of, like, puzzle it out in my head and make sense of it. But, if you're just trying to watch a show and you're not trying to solve a puzzle, I understand that it could be a little off putting.
JOSH: So, I think they told this nice line of trying to appease new people but, also, trying to please people, who have already read everything which are related.
ALYSSA: Which I think brings us nicely to something that's a little bit more of a translation from the original source material, Geralt’s storyline. There's some adapted elements from something more, which is the last short story in Sword of Destiny. In this version, Geralt returns to Cintra 12 years after Pavetta and Duny's wedding banquet. Consequently, he's in Cintra during the siege. In the books, this is a little different. Geralt does go back to Cintra to attempt to claim his child of surprise, but this is now six years after. Calanthe has a slightly different method for trying to get him out. In the books, Calanthe attempts to cheat him by making him choose out of a dozen children which one is this child of surprise, which I think is very clever. And I do miss that scene in this episode specifically because I think it highlights Calanthe’s cunning without making her super—
ELORA: Willing to sacrifice a child?
ALYSSA: Yeah. Like, it still shows how smart and how cunning she is without her being just outright mean, I think. So, that's something that I did miss from the books, but I do think that the way that it was done does make sense for the show given Ciri’s age with a possible desire to make Geralt more of a proactive character than a reactive character.
ELORA: It might also be helpful to, to see, at least, a takeover of Cintra from Geralt perspective and have him really be there instead of just kind of seeing the army from a distance and then hearing about it because then, as a viewer, you also probably feel more affected by it or you feel closer to it.
JOSH: I think that also plays into Calanthe’s wits and how smart she is thinking that Geralt only thinks that the child is a boy. And that, if she shows a boy, he'll just take a boy and that'll be the end of it. And she gets to keep her granddaughter. He gets a, a witcher or a boy he turn to a witcher and everyone wins. For this episode, I think the best part about it is that none of it was in the books and that they needed this episode in particular to bring Ciri’s new plotline and Yennefer’s new plotline and Geralt’s adapted plotline altogether so that they all come together for the, the final episode.
ALYSSA: That is it for our show today. Elora, Josh, thank you so much for joining us for this episode and thank you to our hanza for listening. So, is there anything that our community can help you guys with or anything that you'd like to share with them?
JOSH: The one thing I would like to say is, in the beginning episode, we did talk about setting up the Witcher tabletop game. If we do want to set that up, I'll be more than happy to join in someone's game.
ELORA: Me too.
ALYSSA: I would absolutely love to create some sort of opportunity for everyone to meet each other and hang out. Like, I've had such a wonderful time meeting all the people in our community. I would love for people to make friends. If we get the time zones figured out, we could do it.
JOSH: I need more people to talk to the Witcher about. So—
ELORA: Yeah, exactly.
JOSH: Anyway.
ELORA: I’m really, like, getting desperate because I've successfully dragged my mother into it. She's read all the books and watched the series with me and played the games with me. I've got my father to also play the games with me and watch the series. So, that's pretty good. So, I guess we're getting there, but I could have more.
JOSH: I've only got one who watched the series and played the games. The rest are like, “Josh, we’re sick of hearing you talk about that more than anything else.
ELORA: I will sometimes just go off on tangents, where, yeah, I'm just talking about The Witcher.
ALYSSA: Yeah, I feel like, for me, like, my co-workers know about it. So, I'm like that person in the office. My dad, brother, and sister watched the series. And my sister listened to all of the audiobooks and I tried to talk to her about it. I was like, “Oh, what did you think about it? Did you like it? It was good.
ELORA: Yes.
ALYSSA: I was like, “No!” I was like, “I need more.”
ELORA: Yes, absolutely. That is the conversation then.
ALYSSA: Elora, was there anything for you that you want to share with the community?
ELORA: Yeah, I could give my Instagram where I post arts sometimes often and sometimes not at all. So, it's @elorasperber, which is you can look Elora up in the show description. That's good. Sperber is S-P-E-R-B-E-R. Spelling in English.
ALYSSA: I could tag you in, like, the Instagram post when it goes out too.
ELORA: And I guess, if anyone's an – you know, an agent who's looking for a fancy book, I am probably pitching at the point this episode comes out. So, that's also good. Hit me up.
ALYSSA: Again, thank you guys so much for joining us. And it's been such a pleasure meeting you both and having you both on the show.
ELORA: It’s been great being here. Yeah.
JOSH: Thank you for having me.
ALYSSA: So, next episode, join us as we discuss the final episode of The Witcher Season 1 in our coverage of Episode 8, “Much More.”
Outro & Credits
[Breakfast in Beauclair theme music by MojoFilter Media]
ALYSSA: Thanks for joining us at the breakfast table! For show notes, transcripts of each episode, and a complete list of our social platforms and listening services, head over to breakfastinbeauclair.com.
Breakfast in Beauclair is created by Alyssa from GoodMorhen. It’s hosted by Alyssa with the “Tidings from Toussaint” News Segment by Lars from WitcherFlix. The show is edited by Alyssa with the Breakfast in Beauclair theme by MojoFilter Media and the “Tidings from Toussaint” theme by Bettina Campomanes.
Breakfast in Beauclair is produced by Alyssa in New York City with Luis of Kovir, The Owner of The Churlish Porpoise, Arix the Godling, Katie (The Redhead of Toussaint), Jacob B., Julie, Sylvia of Skellige, Jamison, Ayvo of Gulet, Bee Haven of the Edge of the World, Jacob Meeks, Charlotte from Vengerberg Glamarye, RedKite, The Original Roach, AerialKitty, TheOneTrueChef, Dustin, Chris K. of Kovir, and Libby, The Castel Ravello Sommelier, and Clare Odell.
Special thanks to Elora and Josh C. for joining us for this episode and our international hanza for their support.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil